Baer: Charges for Closure of OSCE Office Ridiculous

Question:  First of all, I would like to expresses my gratitude for this opportunity.  I am very grateful to you, for the opportunity to have this interview with him.

Ambassador Baer:  I’m glad to get the chance to talk to him too.  So thanks very much.

Question:  If you don’t mind, we can actually start the interview, and I’ll just start in with my questions.

Ambassador, my first question is that recently President Aliyev accused you of being mainly responsible for OSCE office shutdown in Baku.  How would you comment this statement?

Ambassador Baer:  So I was surprised to see that President Aliyev was talking about me. His claim is not supported by the facts.  Unfortunately, the reason why the OSCE office in Baku was shut down is because the government of Azerbaijan demanded that it be shut down, which was a loss for both the government and the people of Azerbaijan.  And you know, we continue to support constructive engagement of the OSCE with Azerbaijan, not only in the form of engagement of the institutions of the OSCE or engagement in Vienna at the OSCE Permanent Council, but we also continue to believe that an OSCE field mission in Azerbaijan could make a positive contribution to the people and government of Azerbaijan, and to the security of the region.

Question:  Thank you, Ambassador. Is it true that you put pressure on French government to make sure that Alexis Shakhtakhtinski is expelled from the French Foreign Ministry?

Ambassador Baer:  I think that it’s laughable that somebody would say that.  It’s not true.  The French Foreign Ministry makes its own personnel decisions without asking Dan Baer what to do.

What is true is that the United States and a number of other delegations did make clear our strong support, as we do with many field missions, with all field mission for the OSCE, our strong support for the head of the field mission engaging with civil society, not just with government leaders.

And what happens with the heads of mission for OSCE missions is that they are offered by governments to the OSCE, usually for a one-year term that can be renewed on the mutual agreement of the OSCE and the government that is lending the person to the OSCE.

My understanding is that Mr. Shakhtakhtinski finished his appointment term and, you know, you would have to talk to the French government or the OSCE to find out any other details about what led him to return to Paris.

Question:  Thank you, Ambassador. President Aliyev argued that resuming the OSCE office in Baku could be possible in exchange for the resumption of Mr. Shakhtakhtinski’s diplomatic career.  Was that the intention to restore the OSCE presence in Baku?

Ambassador Baer:  Well, I can answer the second part of that question which is the steps that should be taken to restore the OSCE presence in Baku is for Azerbaijan to signal its willingness to engage with the OSCE in that way, and to welcome an OSCE presence.  That is something that if Azerbaijan came to Vienna and said we’re ready to have a presence in Baku again, the United States would strongly support and we would welcome the, and I think we wouldn’t be along.  There would be strong support around the entire Permanent Council for Azerbaijan’s request.

You know, with respect to Mr. Shakhtahtinski, you know, that’s neither here nor there in my opinion. I guess that’s a conversation that President Aliyev can have with his French counterpart if he feels compelled to do so.

Question:  Thank you, Ambassador.  Yesterday Azerbaijan held a constitutional referendum described as unprecedented breaking of the power balance by authorities for the Azerbaijani president.  How much do you think Azerbaijan’s referendum complies with the OSCE principles?

Ambassador Baer:  I think, I’ve looked at the Venice Commission report and there were kind of two different sets of points made by the Venice Commission.  One was the substance of concerns, one of which you mentioned, you quoted.  The other was more of a process concern, which is that any time you’re making changes to a constitution it’s a very serious matter, and the public has an interest in that proceeding in a deliberate and arguably a way that is slow enough to allow for enough public discussion and debate over what the implications, whether intended or unintended, of that constitutional change might be.

And I think part of that debate that we would look for in any country when an amendment to the constitution or changes to the constitution are proposed, part of the debate would be, is this consistent with universal principles, including the principles that are embodied in OSCE commitments?  Is it consistent with the universal principles embodied in international law in terms of protecting human rights and fundamental freedoms?  And I think the way that the referendum was conducted, many have commented that it short-circuited that kind of open discussion and debate that gives legitimacy to constitutional changes.

Question:  Ambassador, what do you think, what kind of steps should be taken to ensure improved election process in Azerbaijan?  Because we all know that after the last, the parliamentary elections in Azerbaijan, the OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, their experts do not participate in any elections in Azerbaijan.  So what kind of steps should be taken to ensure equal selection in Azerbaijan?

Ambassador Baer:  I guess the first step would be that in the future, you know, Azerbaijan like all other countries including the United States has made a commitment to invite OSCE ODIHR to observe our elections, and OSCE ODIHR has a gold standard, world respected methodology for doing that.  They are coming to the United States to observe our elections in 50 days or so.  And I think in the future it would be good if the government of Azerbaijan worked early with ODIHR to make sure that it is ready to accept, consistent with ODIHR’s methodology, ODIHR observers for its elections.  Because part of the way of improving is to look at what observations, what international observers see and what positive changes they notice, and to build on those positive changes, and what shortcomings they notice, and to try to figure out ways to work with ODIHR and with others to address those shortcomings.

So the most important step the government of Azerbaijan can take is to welcome OSCE observers in the future.  And I think it was regrettable that they weren’t present in last year’s elections because it deprived the government and the people of Azerbaijan of knowing about what progress has been made and what progress is left to be made in the future.

Question:  Ambassador, we all know that you have repeatedly made statements condemning the Azerbaijani authorities for violating human rights and freedoms in Azerbaijan.  As well as urging authorities to release political prisoners in Azerbaijan. Do you really think that your calls have been productive?  Do you really think your statements were efficient and influential?

Ambassador Baer:  Well, to be clear, neither, neither myself nor the U.S. government makes statements only about Azerbaijan.  I know that sometimes people in Azerbaijan think that we wake up each morning thinking about how to criticize Azerbaijan and go to bed each night thinking about that.  That’s not the case.

What we do is we look at, in my case we look at the OSCE commitments that we have all made and we try to assess where there are shortcomings or actions that are inconsistent with those commitments.  And we try to measure everyone, including ourselves, by that same standard.  There is one yardstick within the OSCE which is the commitments that we have all made, and those are commitments that we’ve made to each other.  And we consider it a respectful and responsible activity to call out where we have concerns with the implementation of those commitments.

And so part of what we do when my delegation raises our concerns about a particular case or a crack-down or a particular law, or a particular political prisoner in Azerbaijan, part of what we’re doing is reaffirming those commitments that we have made to each other.

The question about whether it’s effective, the whole point is that the government of Azerbaijan should respect the human rights and fundamental freedoms of the citizens of Azerbaijan and should release political prisoners not because of anything that Dan Baer says, but because that will help build a stronger, more prosperous Azerbaijan which the United States has a long term interest in the partnership that we can have with a strong and prosperous Azerbaijan.

So when we speak out, we’re not only speaking out about the principles and commitments, which by the way, you know, those principles and commitments are what we’re doing here in Warsaw, is looking systematically at those principles and commitments with respect to human rights and how each of us is living up to them.  It’s not only with respect to that.  It’s also part of the foundation for a long term partnership between the United States and Azerbaijan.

Question:  How would you describe human rights situation in Azerbaijan?  How would you describe the current human rights situation in Azerbaijan?

Ambassador Baer:  Well, I think for a comprehensive assessment of the U.S. government’s view of the facts on the ground in terms of the human rights situation in Azerbaijan, I would refer to the most recent Human Rights Report.  And in general, I think it comes as no surprise that we have expressed many times our concerns with shrinking space for freedom of expression, freedom of association, and freedom of peaceful assembly in Azerbaijan, and that the shrinking space for those independent voices is something that while it can, in the moment, feel satisfying or it can even be argued by some in government that this is, that silencing a critic is important for stability, in the long term it really undermines the stability and security of the country.  So it is as a friend that we express our concerns about the shrinking space of, for civil society and for independent voices in Azerbaijan.

We are pleased that a number of civil society activists, independent voices, have been able to make it to Warsaw and who are participating in this meeting.  And I have to say, I’m also pleased that the government of Azerbaijan is here so that when criticisms are raised, the government can share its perspective because that’s an important exchange.  It’s an important dialogue for the civil society activist to say these are our concerns, these are things that we disagree with or things that we think need to be done, and for the government to offer its perspective as well.  And I think that’s part of the value of this meeting here in Warsaw over these two weeks.

Question:  Several U.S. congressmen proposed draft legislation to impose sanctions on Azerbaijani authorities.  Do you really think that such an initiative can be brought to the discussion table at the congress?  And do you really believe that the Magnitski Act can be imposed on Azerbaijan?

Ambassador Baer:  You know, I hope it doesn’t come to that, and I think we will continue to engage as diplomats with our partners in the government in Azerbaijan and with civil society to express our ongoing support for continued progress on respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and OSCE principles and commitments.

Question:  Ambassador, what do you think about U.S. government’s activities for promoting human rights and freedom in Azerbaijan?  A year and a half ago Tori Nuland visited Azerbaijan and she stated about a Joint Intergovernmental Commision for Democracy and Human Rights.  But however, so far we haven’t seen any progress in this direction.  So why do you think that agreement hasn’t been reached?  Why do you think there’s no progress in this regard?

Ambassador Baer:  I know that the scheduling for that Joint Commission has not worked out.  But I think the original motivation for it remains, which is that we as a friend and partner of Azerbaijan want to continue to support translating the commitments that Azerbaijan and the United States and other OSCE participating states have made into action, and we will continue to look for ways to work with the government of Azerbaijan, including through dialogues, et cetera, when those opportunities for dialogue can be constructive and can be translated into action to help continue to advance progress with respect to human rights and fundamental freedoms.

Question:  The last question, what steps do you think should be taken to build constructive ties between Azerbaijan and Western democratic institutions including the U.S.?

Ambassador Baer:  I think the steps that we take every day to engage in good faith with each other, and I think we have to continue to engage both government to government as well as people to people.  And I think in terms of what steps can be taken, one of the reasons why it’s so valuable for me personally as a diplomat to be here in Warsaw and to get the chance to meet face to face with a number of activists or independent civil society voices from Azerbaijan is it’s a chance to listen to them and to understand what steps can we take that support the long term strength and prosperity of Azerbaijan.

And as I said, you know, I remain personally deeply committed to that long term vision of an ever-stronger partnership between our two countries, and I think all of us who work on behalf of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the world, whether we’re doing it in government or in civil society, and whether we’re doing it at home in our own town or internationally, we’re all working to build a system of rule of law that gives people a fair shake, and that is a stable system over the long run.  I really look to civil society voices to continue to point out the opportunities to do better.

Question:  Ambassador, I’d like to thank you once again for this great opportunity.  And I remain hopeful that this kind of communication, this kind of interviews will be in the future.  So I’m looking forward to talking with you in the future as well.  Thank you very much.

Ambassador Baer:  Thank you.  Maybe next time in person.