Mehman Aliyev: “We need to make sure that Armenians could live in Azerbaijan and Azerbaijanis could live in Armenia"

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- The war in Karabakh has transformed from a hot phase to an equally acute political and diplomatic one. Now the population of Azerbaijan has one of the main topics of discussion and reflection - the future of the territories of Nagorno-Karabakh under the control of Russian peacekeepers...

- The Armenian diaspora was unable to force the US and European governments to adopt anti-Azerbaijani decisions. There were no decisions from the West that Azerbaijan could not carry out an operation to liberate the occupied territories. The fact is that the US and the EU have their own strategic interests in the region. These interests cannot be left at the mercy of some benefits of Armenia or the Armenian Diaspora, some illusory calls for Christian unity. All determined specific state interests. The decision of the French parliament on Karabakh demonstrates the mood in French society in relation to the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict, but the government in Paris makes a completely different decision dictated by the interests of France.

France wants to establish peace in Karabakh, which will serve the development of the region. All geopolitical centers have interests in participating in regional projects. Invest, export goods, raw materials, in a word, receive economic dividends. All wars and political zeal are associated with the realization of national interests. For Russia, these are also security issues, which are very important to Moscow, since the conflict took place on its borders. Therefore, the Armenian diaspora could not change the position of these countries.

The fact that the Azerbaijani army was able to carry out a military operation is because the liberation of the occupied territories directly coincided with the interests of these countries, which wanted to establish stability and work in the region in the future. As for the moral support to Armenians from abroad, then Armenia has outplayed us very much. Many of our compatriots note that public opinion in the United States and Europe was on the side of the Armenians. The Armenians were able to receive full sympathy from the Western and Russian public. For 30 years, we have not been able to achieve this. Look at the discussion of experts on Russian TV channels. We could not find people who would represent our position there. In the international arena, Azerbaijan was losing the information war. This is our failure. Our diaspora had to, using people's diplomacy, build relationships with the population, the public of the country in which it lives. To explain the situation, to provide a correct understanding of the events taking place. It is often said in our country that historical facts are on our side, but in the West, they deliberately ignore our position.

This is just an attempt to blame the Armenians for the wrongly structured work with the foreign community, the helplessness of our diaspora. In fact, the problem is that until now we have not been able to build a systematic work of Azerbaijani diaspora organizations abroad. In Europe there are prevailing stereotypes that work: "genocide", "persecution of Christians," etc. It is good that the state interests of geopolitical centers were on our side. Public opinion was not in our favor. During the war, there was a deplorable picture:  in several European cities, 20-30 people of Azerbaijanis went to pickets and could only shout. For example, hundreds of thousands of Azerbaijanis live in Moscow, and the media space is in the hands of Armenians. The leading positions of the Russian media are occupied by Armenians, who, under the guise of protecting the interests of Russia, push Armenia's interests. For years, Armenians have been creating the Armenian elite in Russian, French, American, Canadian society. What kind of elite did our Azerbaijanis create in Russia or Europe? Of the two million Azerbaijanis in the Russian Federation, there were not even a hundred people in the Russian elite. There are a huge number of Armenian websites and media resources in the world. There are many Armenian media in Russia, in which many Russian journalists work. The same Gabrelyanovs direct the activity of these resources. See how the Regnum agency and other actually Armenian media work. At first glance, the sites are Russian, but their focus is carried out by the Armenians. Where are our compatriots in the European, American, Russian media, parliament, politics, and public life? There is no one; nothing has been done. Unfortunately, this is a failure of our foreign policy.

- Armenia has found the main problem of defeat in the Karabakh war - demography. In fact, they have been talking about this in Baku for all 30 years. Some Armenian politicians urge the diaspora to return to Armenia and prepare for revenge...

- In 1994, Armenia created a puppet regime in the occupied territories. Then Yerevan was the winner, there was an advantage, close relations with Russia, which supplied resources, raw materials, goods, loans to support the Armenian economy. However, the Armenian government brought its population to such a state, when a mass exodus of Armenians abroad began. Moreover, the birth rate was falling all the time. At the beginning of hostilities in Armenia - at the end of September this year, there were 1 million 400 thousand people. That is, since the beginning of the conflict at the height of the collapse of the USSR, out of 3.5 million people, almost 2 million people left the country. This is a huge demographic disadvantage. While 3 million out of 10 million Azerbaijanis have gone abroad, there are at least 7 million people in the country. In the case of Armenia and among the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh, the population decreased by half. First, the exodus abroad is associated with the difficult social state of the population. Ordinary people in Armenia wanted a good life, and the victory in Karabakh gradually lost its meaning. Another factor influencing demographics is the uncertainty that there will be long-term peace and no war will start. In Nagorno-Karabakh, people did not believe that they would achieve independence or annexation to Armenia. They did not believe that there would be no war, and the people in Armenia and in the occupied territories did not want to fight and die. As soon as the situation on the Armenian-Azerbaijani front worsened, the exodus from Armenia, especially of the male population, intensified. The war showed that despite the patriotic slogans, none of the Diaspora or Armenia was eager to go to war in Karabakh. If the Armenians do not want to fight now and generally strive to go abroad, then what reason will they return to Armenia to fight again for foreign territories? This is unrealistic. Armenia had a chance to build a strong state, but it did not use it. The only way for Yerevan to remain as a country in the region is to interact closely with Azerbaijan and Turkey. Establish normal, good-neighborly relations, integrate into the regional infrastructure, and conduct mutually beneficial cooperation. The continuation of the state of conflict with neighboring states will finally finish off the Armenian state.

- But they say that the Armenians of Karabakh are returning to Khankendi ... True, there are also rumors that they were simply pushed out of the country by those whom the "Karabakh clan" brought to poverty...

- The exodus of Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia will continue. Yes, we hear reports that so many refugees have returned to Karabakh. However, recent reports say that the number of returning refugees has dropped sharply. In fact, there are about 20 thousand people in Karabakh. Undoubtedly, even more Armenians will go abroad if Armenia does not normalize relations with Baku and Ankara in order to achieve a visible improvement in the socio-economic situation in the country.

- Russian media report on the construction of humanitarian facilities in Khankendi.  Who will restore these territories? Armenia has neither legal grounds nor funds to invest something. It is also not very interesting for the sanctioned Russia to invest hundreds of millions of dollars there. There remains Baku, for which the territories under the control of the peacekeepers are their own land, and those living there are our citizens. There is a promise that over time the Armenians of Karabakh will understand that a life in prosperity can only be ensured by the regional economic leader - Azerbaijan...

- First of all, we have to restore seven liberated regions around Karabakh. Directly in Nagorno-Karabakh, of course, restoration should be in Shusha and in other territories under our control. As for the Armenian-populated Khankendi and other regions, then, probably, this is possible after the establishment of some kind of peace agreement, in which the recognition of Azerbaijan's sovereignty will be clearly noted. This would push Baku to restore these territories. It is necessary to establish new relations with the Armenian community, which consists in the recognition of the jurisdiction of Azerbaijan. This is a matter of not only restoring infrastructure, but also creating jobs, developing the regional economy, etc. President Ilham Aliyev did not hide that Azerbaijan was ready to invest in exchange for peace, and the initial amount of $ 5 billion was called. That is, Azerbaijan has financial and economic opportunities. If such an agreement is concluded, the areas of compact residence of Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh will receive not only Azerbaijani investments, but also investments of foreign companies. The region will emerge from the 30-year darkness of an unrecognized, illegitimate zone. The agreement should indicate the interest of Azerbaijan. In any case, the Armenians will come to such an agreement. The situation showed that when external forces do not interfere in the Karabakh conflict, then the only guarantor of the security and development of the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh, oddly enough, could only be Azerbaijan. Good, friendly relations with Baku are their guarantee of security during the war. Nobody, including Armenia, gave them security guarantees during the period of hostilities.  Ilham Aliyev said from the first days of the war that at any moment Azerbaijan would stop the offensive, let Armenia withdraw its troops from the occupied territories. Another topic is that the Armenians refused to do this.

- What is the optimal administrative model of Nagorno-Karabakh as a region of Azerbaijan?

- Azerbaijan initially stated that the Karabakh conflict was detonated by the territorial claims of Armenia. There is no intra-Azerbaijani conflict here, since the politics and life of the Armenian community of Karabakh were regulated by Yerevan. Of course, first, Azerbaijan will negotiate with Armenia within the framework of the OSCE Minsk Group. After Armenia agrees with the sovereignty of Azerbaijan over Nagorno-Karabakh and the Armenian community agrees to establish relations within the framework of the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan, then negotiations with the Karabakh Armenians can begin. But this is the second stage: the involvement of the Karabakh Armenians in the negotiations. By the way, this is how the question was originally posed. Although Armenia really wanted to involve the Armenian community in the negotiations from the very beginning. By the way, the OSCE Minsk Group mediators have always supported our position on this issue, understanding that the "NKR" is a puppet quasi-state ruled by Yerevan.

- From time to time, Russian President Vladimir Putin talks about the future status of Nagorno-Karabakh. Can this issue in some form return to the agenda at the talks in the OSCE Minsk Group?

- In principle, Nagorno-Karabakh has all the conditions for creating a normal form of local self-government. In general, we need to develop the existing base of local self-government. There are seven socio-economic zones in Azerbaijan. These zones should be transformed into seven governorates, the heads of which would be representatives of the country's president.  The local regional authorities should be transferred to self-government, where the population elects an administration for itself, forms municipal bodies, determines its social and economic policy. In such a system, Baku allocates funds for restoration, development, support of entrepreneurship and other expenses, as in any other region of the country. The competence of local self-government, which is formed through elections, will be the management and development of the region. The central government will support local government, allocate budget funds, and provide everything necessary. These measures must be quickly implemented, because Armenia will not fail to use the issue of the status of the Armenian community for various speculations. At the same time, Armenians should create conditions for cultural development, the use of the Armenian language, etc. Having become a member of the Council of Europe, we signed an agreement on the development of local self-government bodies. Although municipalities were created, the country did not completely switch to this system. Local self-government is a simple and effective scheme: the president is represented in economic zones, including Nagorno-Karabakh, and all regions are local self-government. Now this system exists, but there is an overlap in the person of the executive branch, whose heads are often caught for violations and sent to prison. The legislative base of municipalities was adopted long ago. It just needs to be optimized and conditions created for its functioning. This can be applied in Nagorno-Karabakh.

- In his speeches, speaking about the Karabakh conflict, Putin always begins from the events in Sumgait. In Azerbaijan, completely different events are considered the cause of the conflict. Is there any message to Azerbaijan in the emphasis on Sumgait?

- Putin's words are an echo of the Soviet policy on the Karabakh conflict. At the dawn of the conflict, Moscow tried to work with both conflicting sides. When we met with the Armenians in the Kremlin, we expressed understanding to them, and told that they were being oppressed and we wanted to support them. Thus, we created a trusting relationship with the Armenians in order to be able to influence and lead the process in the direction that Moscow wants. At the same time, when meeting with representatives of the Azerbaijani public, they assured that the Kremlin sympathizes with the Azerbaijanis in their desire to protect their lands from Armenian inclinations. They say that the Communist Party of the Soviet Union knows that Armenians are extremists and aggressors. All these words were intended to gain the confidence of the Azerbaijanis. This policy of flirting with the parties to the conflict led to the ensuing war. Armenians - you rebelled after Sumgait, we will protect you. To Azerbaijanis: yes to territorial integrity, the borders of Azerbaijan recognized by the international community. Putin is trying to make it clear that Russia seeks to ensure the security of Armenians within the framework of the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. However, this gives hope to the revanchist forces of Armenia for support from Russia in order to re-seize Azerbaijani lands. Azerbaijan, to a certain extent, reassures its position on the confirmation of territorial integrity and sovereignty over Karabakh. Usually, Putin speaks with annoyance about the collapse of the USSR and cannot fail to know what actually happened in the late 1980s in Karabakh.

Of course, he knows that the Armenians put forward territorial claims, signatures were being collected at all Moscow universities, and there was a provocative speech by Abel Aganbegyan in Paris, the creation of "Krunk". The Soviet leadership understood that everything would turn into bloody clashes. Then the expulsion of the Azerbaijanis from Armenia, the aggravation of relations between the Azerbaijanis and the Armenians, which was the work of the corresponding people who wanted enmity between the two peoples. Further, between Askeran and Aghdam, two Azerbaijanis were killed. All these events were against the backdrop of the most important thing - the severing of Nagorno-Karabakh from Azerbaijan. Sumgait and other events were a consequence of this. When they talk about the Sumgayit events, they often want to show it as a demonstration of national antagonism between Armenians and Azerbaijanis. This is absurd, since there were no mass clashes between the two peoples for decades of the existence of the USSR until the time when the Armenians raised the Karabakh issue. On the contrary, there was an increase in the presence of Armenians in Azerbaijan, young people from Armenia entered Baku universities, etc. You can see the statistics of those years, where it is noted that the number of Armenians in the Azerbaijan SSR was growing. With the hostile attitude of Azerbaijanis, the number of Armenians in Azerbaijan could not increase. At the same time, the number of Azerbaijanis in Armenia, especially in Yerevan, has been decreasing all the time.

The demography of that time is a vivid example of the attitude towards Armenians in Azerbaijan and the attitude towards Azerbaijanis in Armenia. If Russia and France want peace in the region, then such things should not be flirted with. It should be said clearly that the international borders of Azerbaijan are inviolable, and the self-determination of Armenians can be carried out within the framework of the territorial integrity of Azerbaijan. After the normalization of relations, there should be no obstacles for the Armenians to come to live in the cities of Azerbaijan.  There should be no obstacles for Azerbaijanis who want to live, to create their own business in Armenia. I think that the parties should be responsible in these matters. Territorial integrity cannot be defined within the framework of self-determination of peoples, but on the contrary, it is possible to ensure self-determination within the framework of territorial integrity. There are many of such examples, and the President of Azerbaijan spoke about it, gave examples of various models.

The beginning of the interview